Transforming government organisations

Gordon de Brouwer

Unless we have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in positions of authority and clearly in positions of authority, we don't get the right policy and the right service delivery.

We're not going to communities and saying, this is the solution you have to have.

It's actually listening and engaging on the solutions that communities see as relevant to them.

Danielle Wood

Hi, everyone.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm Danielle Wood, Chair of the Productivity Commission, and I am joined today by Dr Gordon de Brouwer, Commissioner of the Australian Public Service Commission.

Gordon has had a long career in the Commonwealth Public Service and a history of making significant reforms.

Welcome, Commissioner.

During this conversation, we are going to explore a current area of focus for the APSC, transforming government organisations in line with Priority Reform Three under the National Agreement on Closing the Gap.

As many of you will know, the National Agreement on Closing the Gap sets out four priority areas to change the way governments work with First Nations Australians.

Priority Reform Three calls on governments to change their approach to decision making to ensure that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander knowledge, experiences and perspectives are reflected in all decisions.

One aspect of this is having more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the public service.

Over the past two years, the APSC has been running the SES 100 initiative, a targeted effort to recruit and support 100 First Nations SES across the public service.

And I'm very pleased to say that this goal was achieved earlier this year.

Commissioner, congratulations on that fantastic achievement.

I'm really interested to hear from your perspective what having this cohort of First Nations Australians in our senior leadership in the public service will mean and how you think that will shift the way that we go about making decisions within the public service.

Gordon de Brouwer

Thanks, Danielle, and really nice to be here on Ngunnawal country.

I think it's a wonderful thing, the SES 100, the fact that over a year and a half, we went from 54 First Nations SES to 100 First Nations SES at the end of 2024.

And we're in a second round now for both Band 1 and Band 2 First Nations SES.

It's a merit-based process, so it's based on merit, but it's done in a culturally proper way that suits First Nations people.

I think it's, the impact is really, I think, profound.

We have a requirement under the Public Service Act that the public service represents the nation.

And you can only understand the nation if the public service comes from the nation.

And that's as much as it is for culturally and linguistic diverse Australians, as it is also for First Nations Australians.

So unless we have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in positions of authority and clearly in positions of authority, we don't get the right policy in the right service delivery.

So people get better policy as a result because of the different sort of experience that people bring and the insight that they have.

But it also means that we can relate much better to communities, because communities can see them, they can see them in us, and they don't treat the public service as being alien then to communities.

So I think it gives you better policy, better service delivery, and that's good for Australians, as also as statutory duty.

Danielle Wood

So we've got to the 100, which is fantastic.

Where to next for this initiative?

Gordon de Brouwer

So it's very much on the employment side and Priority Reform Three isn't just employment, but it's got other dimensions around, especially how you relate to the community.

But what it means on employment is that we've got a scope for a lot more First Nations employees in the service.

And also for recruitment, it means that people can see themselves.

It's really big.

It really matters.

When people say that they can't see themselves in the senior ranks of an organisation, they don't stay and they don't participate and they don't feel like they can contribute.

When they can see themselves, they do.

And you can see that with all the different groups when they talk about, am I in the service?

Can I be seen?

So we want more of that.

We've got things lined up already in play for leadership and talent development.

both at the executive level, but also for Band 1 and Band 2 First Nations.

We run quite a systematic talent development program to make people be the best public servant that they can be, to do the job the best they can.

And we have special First Nations programs that do that.

So that's to bring in, but also to keep and grow that talent.

Danielle Wood

Priority Reform Three is broader than employment.

It's about sort of fundamentally changing the way that we work to bring First Nations experiences into decision making.

That kind of change is big, it takes time, it's hard.

What do you see when you look across the service in terms of

of how quickly we're adapting and do you see sort of pockets of good practice in responding to that challenge?

Gordon de Brouwer

I think there are some great areas of excellence, including in health and other dimensions.

More generally, there's a change underway.

It's probably framed more generally of how does a public servant engage with the public on a matter?

And we used to talk about stakeholder management, which was really a way of controlling

people.

You go and tell them what government is doing, and management means a form of control.

We then talked about stakeholder engagement, a bit more open.

Here we're going to tell you what we're doing, and we'll listen to what you think.

But the really more advanced forms of engagement are through co-design and partnership with communities, where you bring the apparatus of the state to support communities in their own decision making.

Not us telling them what to do, but actually communities saying to government, this is how you can help us achieve our objectives.

That's front and foremost with First Nations.

When you think around the nature of the closing the gap agenda and the problems or the issues that have arisen, it's that lack of self-determination and control over those matters that affect people.

This nature of the shift of talking from

engagement to partnership is big.

And on the First Nations side, we've just put out, just released a Playbook on partnership with First Nations.

Really, how do you engage and partner with First Nations?

It's got some very practical guidance around that.

And that's something that we're seeing across secretaries and across departments, really strong interest in.

So there's something around how public servants do their job,

And it's very particularised then in the First Nations space.

And that can be a game changer.

We're not going to communities and saying, this is the solution you have to have.

It's actually listening and engaging on the solutions that communities see as relevant to them.

It's quite a big shift.

So it's when you engage in the process as well as how you engage.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

And both.

And early in understanding.

And it's not the idea of us to go out and just tell people what game of policy is for them.

It's actually how do they determine their lives?

And again, bring that power of the state and the funding, the approaches, the insight to support local communities or regional communities in that.

Danielle Wood

And that Playbook is something that's available for everyone working in the APS that might be grappling with these issues.

Gordon de Brouwer

It is, and it's on the APSC website.

It's an internal facing document, so it's

designed to help public servants do it, but we've made it, it's publicly available so that people can see what we're doing as well.

Danielle Wood

I mean, given some of the challenges that you're talking about, you know, it is clear that we need courageous leadership and advocacy to keep that momentum going.

You know, love to hear about how you think about this in your role as APS Commissioner in kind of pushing that transformational reform that sort of public service is undergoing.

Gordon de Brouwer

Well, I think that one, even just the idea of partnership is a courageous thing.

And it was a government priority to say, put people in business at the centre of what we do.

And I think we've talked about that for decades.

And in all these different public service reviews, it's a recurring feature.

It's not about us.

It's about people in business and how do we support them.

But it takes courage to do it.

Because sometimes you've got to take a risk.

You've got to say what matters to you and we're in constrained resources, so we may not be able to do it.

Maybe we know that there may be ways that people want that maybe the government doesn't like, or they've got their own preferences.

So that's part of bringing that together.

That takes courage, but that's a good thing for public servants to have that courage.

It also means understanding the community and people in their terms, on their terms, rather than just expecting them to be like us, which is again why diversity matters, because

The us, if it's a diverse group, then actually we understand the community much better and we're trusted more.

So that's a challenge though too, that it's a more a collective or a group sort of interaction.

Again, it means giving up control and that means letting people exercise power over their own lives.

And that's not always easy.

Danielle Wood

I think that's a fantastic call to action, be bold, give up control, have a look at the Playbook.

Commissioner de Brouwer, thank you so much for sharing your insights and reflections with us today.

You know, changing the systems and cultures in the public service is a long journey, but your leadership, I think, has really set the tone for the service.

We very much appreciate your time and look forward to seeing how transformation aligned with the priority reforms continues to shape the APS.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.